(10-25-2018 11:46 AM)BruceMcF Wrote:  Preventing stuff like this is part of why they changed the continuity rules. CUSA West bolts, no NCAA autobid in any sponsored sport for 7 years, plus no shot at the Access Bowl spot.

You're right. I had misinterpreted the continuity clause of the new rule. After reading it again, I can see why there will be no "new" conferences formed.

The new conference could be granted a waiver by the NCAA. Highly unlikely and a huge gamble to take.

So, any movement between the SBC/CUSA conferences is going to have to be wholesale trading of schools between conferences to end up with 2 regionally distinct conferences or a massive expansion of one to make divisions large enough to mitigate cross division travel.

(10-25-2018 12:50 PM)CAJUNNATION Wrote:  

(10-25-2018 11:46 AM)BruceMcF Wrote:  Preventing stuff like this is part of why they changed the continuity rules. CUSA West bolts, no NCAA autobid in any sponsored sport for 7 years, plus no shot at the Access Bowl spot.

You're right. I had misinterpreted the continuity clause of the new rule. After reading it again, I can see why there will be no "new" conferences formed.

The new conference could be granted a waiver by the NCAA. Highly unlikely and a huge gamble to take.

So, any movement between the SBC/CUSA conferences is going to have to be wholesale trading of schools between conferences to end up with 2 regionally distinct conferences or a massive expansion of one to make divisions large enough to mitigate cross division travel.

Various people I've talked to believe a waiver would be basically rubber stamped IF there were no change in the number of auto-bid conferences.

With the grace period rules you pretty much have to expel a team before abandoning a league because if you leave one ugly sister behind and they can find some willing schools they can rebuild the league and keep the auto bid.

WAC is in play for an auto-bid, but UTEP will not want to be with New Mexico State.

Nothing about this would be equitable. Sun Belt may as well change their name to Scrap Belt. And there will be no doubt as to who sits at the bottom of the G5 thereafter.

(10-25-2018 02:06 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  Various people I've talked to believe a waiver would be basically rubber stamped IF there were no change in the number of auto-bid conferences.

Then, we'll do the doughnut. Group of 14-16 from the middle. UTEP goes Indy. CUSA becomes an east coast league.

WEST

UTSA, Texas State, Rice, North Texas, Louisiana, Louisiana Tech, Arkansas Sate


EAST

Southern Miss, UAB, Troy, Middle Tennessee, Western Kentucky, App, Marshall

(10-25-2018 06:18 AM)BruceMcF Wrote:  

(10-24-2018 11:00 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  

(10-24-2018 09:18 PM)cmett003 Wrote:  That’s the problem, very few schools in C-USA and Sunbelt are at the top in football and basketball. Which forces the potential new conference to pick between one or the other. You can make a great G5 football league on paper that is a terrible basketball conference. You could also put together a really solid b-ball league that could get multiple bids every year but the foodball might not be great. It’s one reason why this is so difficult

Yes and I don't really see much point in making a stronger G5 football conference out of CUSA/SBC/IND.

-A G5 football conference is still a G5 with no shot at the playoff.
-A G5 football conference is a G5 meaning any school could break out.
-Rearranging the deck could hurt some FB programs.

Trying to put together an AAC basketball level makes more sense. Grabbing some of the quality A10 teams like Dayton and VCU in the process would almost by default make the new league the A10 replacement league.

That is where I think the MAC should go, grab some BB only schools from the A10/MVC to 16 and stamp out the BB competition. They wouldn't cut into football money but would probably double the money and TV received in basketball by the MAC.

All too often in conference realignment, you don't want to enter the country club you can get into, and the country club you want into won't let you in.

Could the MAC "grab" 4 high quality MVC/A10 BBall schools? Or would they say, "not an upgrade, not interested."?

To bring it back on topic for this thread ... the assumption that the CUSA can just point to an SBC school and say "now it is your turn" and the SBC school will jump to join is also a bit questionable. The old Big East, CUSA and the SBC may have been in quite clear positions at one point in time, but it's not so clear anymore that every SBC school is hankering to get into CUSA.

Yeah I would love A10/MVC non-FB additions to the MAC. Problem is there isn’t a single A10/MVC school that would take the call.

(10-25-2018 06:28 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  

(10-25-2018 06:18 AM)BruceMcF Wrote:  

(10-24-2018 11:00 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  

(10-24-2018 09:18 PM)cmett003 Wrote:  That’s the problem, very few schools in C-USA and Sunbelt are at the top in football and basketball. Which forces the potential new conference to pick between one or the other. You can make a great G5 football league on paper that is a terrible basketball conference. You could also put together a really solid b-ball league that could get multiple bids every year but the foodball might not be great. It’s one reason why this is so difficult

Yes and I don't really see much point in making a stronger G5 football conference out of CUSA/SBC/IND.

-A G5 football conference is still a G5 with no shot at the playoff.
-A G5 football conference is a G5 meaning any school could break out.
-Rearranging the deck could hurt some FB programs.

Trying to put together an AAC basketball level makes more sense. Grabbing some of the quality A10 teams like Dayton and VCU in the process would almost by default make the new league the A10 replacement league.

That is where I think the MAC should go, grab some BB only schools from the A10/MVC to 16 and stamp out the BB competition. They wouldn't cut into football money but would probably double the money and TV received in basketball by the MAC.

All too often in conference realignment, you don't want to enter the country club you can get into, and the country club you want into won't let you in.

Could the MAC "grab" 4 high quality MVC/A10 BBall schools? Or would they say, "not an upgrade, not interested."?

To bring it back on topic for this thread ... the assumption that the CUSA can just point to an SBC school and say "now it is your turn" and the SBC school will jump to join is also a bit questionable. The old Big East, CUSA and the SBC may have been in quite clear positions at one point in time, but it's not so clear anymore that every SBC school is hankering to get into CUSA.

Yeah I would love A10/MVC non-FB additions to the MAC. Problem is there isn’t a single A10/MVC school that would take the call.

St. Louis actually talked with the MAC before joining the A10. They don't want to go to the MVC but feel differently being associated with an FBS conference.

Then the question is can you put a combination together that would be attractive?

St. Louis
Bradley
Loyola
Valpo

That would be enough to do it IMO.

The question with the MVC is that they are not the same since Creighton and Wichita State left. I do think any MVC members with football will look someplace else. Would the MAC go bigger if they take in James Madison, Illinois State, Southern Illinois, Indiana State, Northern Iowa and Youngstown State? They might become a multi bid league with the basketball history of the MVC schools. Missouri State can join with Arkansas State on the west with the C-USA west schools. That would put the MVFC in jeopardy.

(10-25-2018 08:22 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  

(10-25-2018 06:28 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  

(10-25-2018 06:18 AM)BruceMcF Wrote:  

(10-24-2018 11:00 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  

(10-24-2018 09:18 PM)cmett003 Wrote:  That’s the problem, very few schools in C-USA and Sunbelt are at the top in football and basketball. Which forces the potential new conference to pick between one or the other. You can make a great G5 football league on paper that is a terrible basketball conference. You could also put together a really solid b-ball league that could get multiple bids every year but the foodball might not be great. It’s one reason why this is so difficult

Yes and I don't really see much point in making a stronger G5 football conference out of CUSA/SBC/IND.

-A G5 football conference is still a G5 with no shot at the playoff.
-A G5 football conference is a G5 meaning any school could break out.
-Rearranging the deck could hurt some FB programs.

Trying to put together an AAC basketball level makes more sense. Grabbing some of the quality A10 teams like Dayton and VCU in the process would almost by default make the new league the A10 replacement league.

That is where I think the MAC should go, grab some BB only schools from the A10/MVC to 16 and stamp out the BB competition. They wouldn't cut into football money but would probably double the money and TV received in basketball by the MAC.

All too often in conference realignment, you don't want to enter the country club you can get into, and the country club you want into won't let you in.

Could the MAC "grab" 4 high quality MVC/A10 BBall schools? Or would they say, "not an upgrade, not interested."?

To bring it back on topic for this thread ... the assumption that the CUSA can just point to an SBC school and say "now it is your turn" and the SBC school will jump to join is also a bit questionable. The old Big East, CUSA and the SBC may have been in quite clear positions at one point in time, but it's not so clear anymore that every SBC school is hankering to get into CUSA.

Yeah I would love A10/MVC non-FB additions to the MAC. Problem is there isn’t a single A10/MVC school that would take the call.

St. Louis actually talked with the MAC before joining the A10. They don't want to go to the MVC but feel differently being associated with an FBS conference.

Then the question is can you put a combination together that would be attractive?

St. Louis
Bradley
Loyola
Valpo

That would be enough to do it IMO.

Isn't Saint Louis waiting/hoping for a Big East invite? It might not come for a while, or at all, but they're certainly the type of school the BE would choose should that time come.

(10-25-2018 09:28 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  Isn't Saint Louis waiting/hoping for a Big East invite? It might not come for a while, or at all, but they're certainly the type of school the BE would choose should that time come.

If the package was good and helped some current MAC schools lift their own game, it seems likely the MAC would be in a position to replace St. Louis by the time such a call came. If there had been some at-large bids and some more tourney runs out of the MAC, Dayton might take the MAC's call in that case.

(10-25-2018 02:06 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  

(10-25-2018 12:50 PM)CAJUNNATION Wrote:  

(10-25-2018 11:46 AM)BruceMcF Wrote:  Preventing stuff like this is part of why they changed the continuity rules. CUSA West bolts, no NCAA autobid in any sponsored sport for 7 years, plus no shot at the Access Bowl spot.

You're right. I had misinterpreted the continuity clause of the new rule. After reading it again, I can see why there will be no "new" conferences formed.

The new conference could be granted a waiver by the NCAA. Highly unlikely and a huge gamble to take.

So, any movement between the SBC/CUSA conferences is going to have to be wholesale trading of schools between conferences to end up with 2 regionally distinct conferences or a massive expansion of one to make divisions large enough to mitigate cross division travel.

Various people I've talked to believe a waiver would be basically rubber stamped IF there were no change in the number of auto-bid conferences.

That is at least plausible. The new Big East increased the number of auto-bid conferences by one, but didn't actually take any at-large bids from any A5 conferences, so it was the de facto equivalent of no additional auto-bid conferences.

Quote: With the grace period rules you pretty much have to expel a team before abandoning a league because if you leave one ugly sister behind and they can find some willing schools they can rebuild the league and keep the auto bid.

I don't think that the "division split" approach would actually involve expelling anybody that didn't want to go ... it would involve having two candidates for the West that are wanted and want to come, and two eight team conferences allowing UAB to move to the east.

So how would this lead to two new conferences WITHOUT increasing the total number of autobid conferences? Obviously by inviting ALL of the SBC into one or the other of the two divisions.

But if that is being done, you don't NEED any shenanigans. You get a invite of the "East" members into CUSA, contingent on all of CUSA West being invited into the SBC and whatever name change is decided on, an invite of all of CUSA West into the SBC plus whatever name change is decided on, contingent on the selected "East" members being invited into CUSA.

Once both invites are extended, both become effective, and both CONFERENCES can clearly MEET all of the team and sports sponsorship rules in the coming season and have MET all of the team and sports sponsorship rules for eight seasons, so continuity is MAINTAINED. No longer even have to worry about whether the same Seven (for BBall) or Six (for other sports, possibly including one affiliate member) have played together continuously ... it can be an entirely different group. That is, "continuity" is no longer continuity of a group of schools playing together, it is now continuity of a conference meeting the rules, so any reshuffling of the SBC and CUSA that results in two conferences that has the two formal company shells on each side, no waiver would even be required.

I am skeptical if it works if any of the current FBS schools are kicked to the curb. But if it is a matter of CUSA putting together the foundation for the reshuffle in their two divisions and then inviting the SBC en masse, that is one of the more workable paths to a CUSA/SBC reshuffle that I have seen.

(10-23-2018 09:47 PM)MWC Tex Wrote:  Where are you hearing these rumors from? Within the university?

he hears voices on a regular basis..

The new conference needs to be built with rivals or potential rivals within regional alignment. I think this hypothetical conference does that and maintains a solid football and basketball level.

North
ODU
Marshall
App St
Charlotte
JMU
WKU
Coastal Carolina

South
UAB
Troy
MTSU
Ga Southern
Ga State
FAU
FIU

Year End Rivalry Week Games
ODU-JMU
Marshall-App State
WKU-MTSU (only non-division game but they need to play every year)
FAU-FIU
UAB-Troy
Ga State-Ga Southern
Charlotte-Coastal

(10-26-2018 07:53 AM)cmett003 Wrote:  The new conference needs to be built with rivals or potential rivals within regional alignment. I think this hypothetical conference does that and maintains a solid football and basketball level.

North
ODU
Marshall
App St
Charlotte
JMU
WKU
Coastal Carolina

South
UAB
Troy
MTSU
Ga Southern
Ga State
FAU
FIU

Year End Rivalry Week Games
ODU-JMU
Marshall-App State
WKU-MTSU (only non-division game but they need to play every year)
FAU-FIU
UAB-Troy
Ga State-Ga Southern
Charlotte-Coastal

Yeah, that'd be pretty good.

If C-USA ate the entire Sunbelt in 2 gulps, it could contain the growth of FBS. Unless you're averaging over 20k fans, you really shouldn't move up from FCS. The Sunbelt has survived with FBS newbies. Let an expanded C-USA take on that role and slow it down some. For the 24-28 members, you would need a 4-team playoff, which would require some NCAA work. After several years, you could break off a separate conference if necessary.

(10-26-2018 07:53 AM)cmett003 Wrote:  The new conference needs to be built with rivals or potential rivals within regional alignment. I think this hypothetical conference does that and maintains a solid football and basketball level.

North
ODU
Marshall
App St
Charlotte
JMU
WKU
Coastal Carolina

South
UAB
Troy
MTSU
Ga Southern
Ga State
FAU
FIU

Year End Rivalry Week Games
ODU-JMU
Marshall-App State
WKU-MTSU (only non-division game but they need to play every year)
FAU-FIU
UAB-Troy
Ga State-Ga Southern
Charlotte-Coastal

The way to do this is to reconstruct CUSA and the SBC into Eastern and Western based conferences.

CUSA - Eastern Based Conference

North Division
Marshall, App State, ODU, Charlotte, MTSU, WKU
South Division
GA State, GA Southern, Coastal Carolina, UAB, FIU, FAU

Sun Belt - Western Based Conference
East Division
Ark State, LA Tech, USM, Troy, USA, Louisiana
West Division
N. Texas, Rice, TX State, UTSA, UTEP, NMSU

(10-26-2018 09:11 AM)HoustonCajun Wrote:  

(10-26-2018 07:53 AM)cmett003 Wrote:  The new conference needs to be built with rivals or potential rivals within regional alignment. I think this hypothetical conference does that and maintains a solid football and basketball level.

North
ODU
Marshall
App St
Charlotte
JMU
WKU
Coastal Carolina

South
UAB
Troy
MTSU
Ga Southern
Ga State
FAU
FIU

Year End Rivalry Week Games
ODU-JMU
Marshall-App State
WKU-MTSU (only non-division game but they need to play every year)
FAU-FIU
UAB-Troy
Ga State-Ga Southern
Charlotte-Coastal

The way to do this is to reconstruct CUSA and the SBC into Eastern and Western based conferences.

CUSA - Eastern Based Conference

North Division
Marshall, App State, ODU, Charlotte, MTSU, WKU
South Division
GA State, GA Southern, Coastal Carolina, UAB, FIU, FAU

Sun Belt - Western Based Conference
East Division
Ark State, LA Tech, USM, Troy, USA, Louisiana
West Division
N. Texas, Rice, TX State, UTSA, UTEP, NMSU

Troy would be in the eastern conference and UL-Monroe would be in the west. Also JMU would be in the east to make sense for rivals and get to 14 teams.

(10-26-2018 09:10 AM)USM@FTL Wrote:  If C-USA ate the entire Sunbelt in 2 gulps, it could contain the growth of FBS. Unless you're averaging over 20k fans, you really shouldn't move up from FCS. The Sunbelt has survived with FBS newbies. Let an expanded C-USA take on that role and slow it down some. For the 24-28 members, you would need a 4-team playoff, which would require some NCAA work. After several years, you could break off a separate conference if necessary.

They missed their chance when the Big East/AAC rebuilt.

(10-26-2018 04:59 AM)BruceMcF Wrote:  

(10-25-2018 09:28 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  Isn't Saint Louis waiting/hoping for a Big East invite? It might not come for a while, or at all, but they're certainly the type of school the BE would choose should that time come.

If the package was good and helped some current MAC schools lift their own game, it seems likely the MAC would be in a position to replace St. Louis by the time such a call came. If there had been some at-large bids and some more tourney runs out of the MAC, Dayton might take the MAC's call in that case.

St. Louis and Dayton have been rumored to be on the Big East's shortlist from the moment of the conference's post-football establishment. If moving to the MAC hurts their chances of later moving to the Big East (and likely sends them to a lesser basketball conference, even with the A-10's relative struggles), then I don't think either do it — especially if they aren't comfortable being in a football conference (St. Louis was pushed out the C-USA door when they went all in on football).

And if they're going to be constant defection threats if the Big East decides to expand, I'm not so sure the MAC takes that risk either.

(10-26-2018 07:53 AM)cmett003 Wrote:  The new conference needs to be built with rivals or potential rivals within regional alignment. I think this hypothetical conference does that and maintains a solid football and basketball level.

North
ODU
Marshall
App St
Charlotte
JMU
WKU
Coastal Carolina

South
UAB
Troy
MTSU
Ga Southern
Ga State
FAU
FIU

Year End Rivalry Week Games
ODU-JMU
Marshall-App State
WKU-MTSU (only non-division game but they need to play every year)
FAU-FIU
UAB-Troy
Ga State-Ga Southern
Charlotte-Coastal

Perhaps switch WKU with one of the Florida schools, putting WKU and Middle Tennessee in the same division and also allowing everyone to have a reliable Florida presence (I believe Marshall recruits Florida heavily and everyone does to some degree because Florida).