(01-15-2019 02:42 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  

(01-15-2019 09:47 AM)TexanMark Wrote:  

(01-15-2019 09:43 AM)stever20 Wrote:  if Syracuse barely makes tourney, that shot will be the reason why.

Steven you know better...Cuse is destined to barely make the tournament. That is what we we have done since probation...oh and also advance further than the haters can stand.

Beating a team that could be one of the top overall 1-seeds is going to make Syracuse the tallest of the bubble "midgets" if they find themselves there.

What makes them a problem is that they could be one of those gatekeeper teams that confounds the committee, because other bubble teams having beaten them positions them awkwardly.

Last year, this seemed to be the case for Syracuse, and I think it's why you had St. Bonaventure getting a bid. If you can't overlook 'Cuse, you probably shouldn't a similar team who bested them.

This year, it was looking like Temple, VCU, and Texas among those who could make things hard.

Cuse most likely will get the benefit of the doubt. They have one of the largest fan bases out there and usually draw excellent TV ratings. It shouldn't matter but it does.

(01-15-2019 06:30 PM)TexanMark Wrote:  

(01-15-2019 02:42 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  

(01-15-2019 09:47 AM)TexanMark Wrote:  

(01-15-2019 09:43 AM)stever20 Wrote:  if Syracuse barely makes tourney, that shot will be the reason why.

Steven you know better...Cuse is destined to barely make the tournament. That is what we we have done since probation...oh and also advance further than the haters can stand.

Beating a team that could be one of the top overall 1-seeds is going to make Syracuse the tallest of the bubble "midgets" if they find themselves there.

What makes them a problem is that they could be one of those gatekeeper teams that confounds the committee, because other bubble teams having beaten them positions them awkwardly.

Last year, this seemed to be the case for Syracuse, and I think it's why you had St. Bonaventure getting a bid. If you can't overlook 'Cuse, you probably shouldn't a similar team who bested them.

This year, it was looking like Temple, VCU, and Texas among those who could make things hard.

Cuse most likely will get the benefit of the doubt. They have one of the largest fan bases out there and usually draw excellent TV ratings. It shouldn't matter but it does.

Them getting in is one thing. Just as long as they’re not playing in Hartford or Columbus their first weekend with a crummy seed.

(01-15-2019 07:28 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  

(01-15-2019 06:30 PM)TexanMark Wrote:  

(01-15-2019 02:42 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  

(01-15-2019 09:47 AM)TexanMark Wrote:  

(01-15-2019 09:43 AM)stever20 Wrote:  if Syracuse barely makes tourney, that shot will be the reason why.

Steven you know better...Cuse is destined to barely make the tournament. That is what we we have done since probation...oh and also advance further than the haters can stand.

Beating a team that could be one of the top overall 1-seeds is going to make Syracuse the tallest of the bubble "midgets" if they find themselves there.

What makes them a problem is that they could be one of those gatekeeper teams that confounds the committee, because other bubble teams having beaten them positions them awkwardly.

Last year, this seemed to be the case for Syracuse, and I think it's why you had St. Bonaventure getting a bid. If you can't overlook 'Cuse, you probably shouldn't a similar team who bested them.

This year, it was looking like Temple, VCU, and Texas among those who could make things hard.

Cuse most likely will get the benefit of the doubt. They have one of the largest fan bases out there and usually draw excellent TV ratings. It shouldn't matter but it does.

Them getting in is one thing. Just as long as they’re not playing in Hartford or Columbus their first weekend with a crummy seed.

I haven't checked but I assume they are the closest locations. Not sure why they can't get assigned there in your opinion.

Total misconception that Syracuse should get in based on past history. They'll get in based on how they're doing this year and nothing else.

not really an upset- but a laughable result IMO...

West Virginia 67
TCU 98

Wow the wheels have totally fallen off for WVU.

(01-15-2019 08:22 PM)Rube Dali Wrote:  Total misconception that Syracuse should get in based on past history. They'll get in based on how they're doing this year and nothing else.

I agree but my point is if it comes down to 2 teams and Cuse is one of them...guess who gets the benefit of doubt?

(01-15-2019 07:48 PM)TexanMark Wrote:  I haven't checked but I assume they are the closest locations. Not sure why they can't get assigned there in your opinion.

The committee "protecting" the ACC teams, putting them close to home regardless of seed.

The committee has really been abandoning seeding logic over the last decade it feels, where the high seeds (1-4) aren't getting the geographical advantage they should. While you can't change the selected teams and venues, where you place them is something the committee very much controls. Unfortunately, now that the network has a seat at the table, television is considered, and seeding and placement happens after the field is selected, with "the curve" and other intangible excuses to justify some of these pairings. And for a Syracuse, the potential kind of reminds me of what happened the year UConn won the title. That first weekend...those pairings were not what they should have been. Great for us who love our northeastern hoops, and knowing we didn't have to go far to see our teams, but it shot holes through that placement structure. Or with Wichita when they grabbed a top line...to have then face a Kentucky-based team (you pick, Louisville or Kentucky) in Indianapolis. Or, of course, the topper...needing to put Dayton in the play-in game...on their own court. Total bull****.

Right now, Lunardi has Cuse at the 10 line. Move to the 8/9, and they may go to Columbus. Go to 11, and it could be Hartford (after the play-in). The potential of an out-of-region 3-seed getting Cuse in Connecticut just isn't right. But it will fill the joint.

(01-16-2019 09:04 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  

(01-15-2019 07:48 PM)TexanMark Wrote:  I haven't checked but I assume they are the closest locations. Not sure why they can't get assigned there in your opinion.

The committee "protecting" the ACC teams, putting them close to home regardless of seed.

The committee has really been abandoning seeding logic over the last decade it feels, where the high seeds (1-4) aren't getting the geographical advantage they should. While you can't change the selected teams and venues, where you place them is something the committee very much controls. Unfortunately, now that the network has a seat at the table, television is considered, and seeding and placement happens after the field is selected, with "the curve" and other intangible excuses to justify some of these pairings. And for a Syracuse, the potential kind of reminds me of what happened the year UConn won the title. That first weekend...those pairings were not what they should have been. Great for us who love our northeastern hoops, and knowing we didn't have to go far to see our teams, but it shot holes through that placement structure. Or with Wichita when they grabbed a top line...to have then face a Kentucky-based team (you pick, Louisville or Kentucky) in Indianapolis. Total bull****.

Right now, Lunardi has Cuse at the 10 line. Move to the 8/9, and they may go to Columbus. Go to 11, and it could be Hartford (after the play-in). The potential of an out-of-region 3-seed getting Cuse in Connecticut just isn't right.

well one thing, if you are going to the play in game, the committee can't send you west by rule. Has to be reasonably close to Dayton....

Also if they're up to 8/9 they're going to be really limited where they can go, given who the top teams are and where the sites are. Right now Lunardi has 2 ACC teams as 1 seeds, so can't play there. Both the other 1 seeds(Michigan, Tennessee) he has going to Columbus- so if Syracuse is a 8/9 seed, that's where they must go.

(01-16-2019 09:14 AM)stever20 Wrote:  

(01-16-2019 09:04 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  

(01-15-2019 07:48 PM)TexanMark Wrote:  I haven't checked but I assume they are the closest locations. Not sure why they can't get assigned there in your opinion.

The committee "protecting" the ACC teams, putting them close to home regardless of seed.

The committee has really been abandoning seeding logic over the last decade it feels, where the high seeds (1-4) aren't getting the geographical advantage they should. While you can't change the selected teams and venues, where you place them is something the committee very much controls. Unfortunately, now that the network has a seat at the table, television is considered, and seeding and placement happens after the field is selected, with "the curve" and other intangible excuses to justify some of these pairings. And for a Syracuse, the potential kind of reminds me of what happened the year UConn won the title. That first weekend...those pairings were not what they should have been. Great for us who love our northeastern hoops, and knowing we didn't have to go far to see our teams, but it shot holes through that placement structure. Or with Wichita when they grabbed a top line...to have then face a Kentucky-based team (you pick, Louisville or Kentucky) in Indianapolis. Total bull****.

Right now, Lunardi has Cuse at the 10 line. Move to the 8/9, and they may go to Columbus. Go to 11, and it could be Hartford (after the play-in). The potential of an out-of-region 3-seed getting Cuse in Connecticut just isn't right.

well one thing, if you are going to the play in game, the committee can't send you west by rule. Has to be reasonably close to Dayton....

Also if they're up to 8/9 they're going to be really limited where they can go, given who the top teams are and where the sites are. Right now Lunardi has 2 ACC teams as 1 seeds, so can't play there. Both the other 1 seeds(Michigan, Tennessee) he has going to Columbus- so if Syracuse is a 8/9 seed, that's where they must go.

With seeds 7 through 10 pretty much a toss-up, admitted by the committee, I don't know if I could look at a 8/9 Cuse in the above situation as anything but a deliberate pad.

I don't disagree with you. But, when you say "by rule," and we talk about the venue, and that Dayton team...it hits a similar nerve, like this placement thing. I don't think the rules are that. Some liberties taken. Not over the top egregious (well, Dayton was), but still not right.

(01-16-2019 09:55 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  

(01-16-2019 09:14 AM)stever20 Wrote:  

(01-16-2019 09:04 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  

(01-15-2019 07:48 PM)TexanMark Wrote:  I haven't checked but I assume they are the closest locations. Not sure why they can't get assigned there in your opinion.

The committee "protecting" the ACC teams, putting them close to home regardless of seed.

The committee has really been abandoning seeding logic over the last decade it feels, where the high seeds (1-4) aren't getting the geographical advantage they should. While you can't change the selected teams and venues, where you place them is something the committee very much controls. Unfortunately, now that the network has a seat at the table, television is considered, and seeding and placement happens after the field is selected, with "the curve" and other intangible excuses to justify some of these pairings. And for a Syracuse, the potential kind of reminds me of what happened the year UConn won the title. That first weekend...those pairings were not what they should have been. Great for us who love our northeastern hoops, and knowing we didn't have to go far to see our teams, but it shot holes through that placement structure. Or with Wichita when they grabbed a top line...to have then face a Kentucky-based team (you pick, Louisville or Kentucky) in Indianapolis. Total bull****.

Right now, Lunardi has Cuse at the 10 line. Move to the 8/9, and they may go to Columbus. Go to 11, and it could be Hartford (after the play-in). The potential of an out-of-region 3-seed getting Cuse in Connecticut just isn't right.

well one thing, if you are going to the play in game, the committee can't send you west by rule. Has to be reasonably close to Dayton....

Also if they're up to 8/9 they're going to be really limited where they can go, given who the top teams are and where the sites are. Right now Lunardi has 2 ACC teams as 1 seeds, so can't play there. Both the other 1 seeds(Michigan, Tennessee) he has going to Columbus- so if Syracuse is a 8/9 seed, that's where they must go.

With seeds 7 through 10 pretty much a toss-up, admitted by the committee, I don't know if I could look at a 8/9 Cuse in the above situation as anything but a deliberate pad.

I don't disagree with you. But, when you say "by rule," and we talk about the venue, and that Dayton team...it hits a similar nerve, like this placement thing. I don't think the rules are that. Some liberties taken. Not over the top egregious (well, Dayton was), but still not right.

Dayton that year (2015) beat Boise at home in the play-in game. Then the next game they played 20 minutes down the road in Columbus in a virtual home game that started on a Friday night at like 11:45pm, beating 6-seed Providence. In the Sunday game 2 days later they almost beat 3-seed Oklahoma, again in a virtual home game. Crazy that an 11-seed was given such an advantage (would've loved to have seen PC play in Worcester or Boston).

totally agree with billyjack. plus Providence got victimized by maybe the worst technical foul that I have ever seen in that game on Cooley.

Nothing they can do with Dayton if they make the first four for first game. But 2nd/3rd games they should never get to play in Columbus. Common Sense.

(01-16-2019 12:01 PM)stever20 Wrote:  totally agree with billyjack. plus Providence got victimized by maybe the worst technical foul that I have ever seen in that game on Cooley.

Nothing they can do with Dayton if they make the first four for first game. But 2nd/3rd games they should never get to play in Columbus. Common Sense.

The committee claimed Dayton belonged there. Until one can fully substantiate how the rankings and seedings are finally drawn, I guess I'll just always doubt it. I just don't understand how you physically can't bump Dayton around the seed line. It was as much a deliberate action to say "no, Dayton is the absolute last team in," as it was "team <> should not be playing into the tournament."

And, yeah, 2015 Dayton is probably THE example of how not to seed. Not just to Boise, but to Provy and Oklahoma, too.

2014 East Region was another. UConn, Saint Joe's, Villanova, Virginia...all with some room to gripe. Obviously, UConn not so much, but as the 7-seed, why are they traveling further than the 10?

(01-16-2019 01:23 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  

(01-16-2019 12:01 PM)stever20 Wrote:  totally agree with billyjack. plus Providence got victimized by maybe the worst technical foul that I have ever seen in that game on Cooley.

Nothing they can do with Dayton if they make the first four for first game. But 2nd/3rd games they should never get to play in Columbus. Common Sense.

The committee claimed Dayton belonged there. Until one can fully substantiate how the rankings and seedings are finally drawn, I guess I'll just always doubt it. I just don't understand how you physically can't bump Dayton around the seed line. It was as much a deliberate action to say "no, Dayton is the absolute last team in," as it was "team <> should not be playing into the tournament."

And, yeah, 2015 Dayton is probably THE example of how not to seed. Not just to Boise, but to Provy and Oklahoma, too.

2014 East Region was another. UConn, Saint Joe's, Villanova, Virginia...all with some room to gripe. Obviously, UConn not so much, but as the 7-seed, why are they traveling further than the 10?

Why should Dayton either be forced to miss the tourney or avoid the first 4 just because they host the first 4? If they are one of the last 4 teams in the tourney, they absolutely should be playing in the first four.

(01-16-2019 02:09 PM)stever20 Wrote:  

(01-16-2019 01:23 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  

(01-16-2019 12:01 PM)stever20 Wrote:  totally agree with billyjack. plus Providence got victimized by maybe the worst technical foul that I have ever seen in that game on Cooley.

Nothing they can do with Dayton if they make the first four for first game. But 2nd/3rd games they should never get to play in Columbus. Common Sense.

The committee claimed Dayton belonged there. Until one can fully substantiate how the rankings and seedings are finally drawn, I guess I'll just always doubt it. I just don't understand how you physically can't bump Dayton around the seed line. It was as much a deliberate action to say "no, Dayton is the absolute last team in," as it was "team <> should not be playing into the tournament."

And, yeah, 2015 Dayton is probably THE example of how not to seed. Not just to Boise, but to Provy and Oklahoma, too.

2014 East Region was another. UConn, Saint Joe's, Villanova, Virginia...all with some room to gripe. Obviously, UConn not so much, but as the 7-seed, why are they traveling further than the 10?

Why should Dayton either be forced to miss the tourney or avoid the first 4 just because they host the first 4? If they are one of the last 4 teams in the tourney, they absolutely should be playing in the first four.

Produce the metric that subjected Dayton as the last at-large, or the composite of metrics that put them in that pool. That's all I'm saying. Because it's just been someone from the committee saying "this is the last team in." How did they get there on that list?

I don't think there were any metrics out there that put them at the bottom of the at-large's, especially against some of the others who WERE in the tournament and scattered seeds higher than them, or otherwise avoiding the play-in.

I don't have a problem with 2014 Xavier, who played in Dayton. I just think 2015 was completely avoidable, and the committee hasn't exactly been good on explaining these things with pure metrics or logic. Especially when its integrity is tainted when television is consulted. You think this may not have been avoidable. I think it was. But, I don't disagree with the core of your question.

I mean, at this point, it's all hypothetical. Syracuse could not lose another game, and it may not matter where they play. Conversely, where they currently are, there's still a chance they miss. But this is one team in that one conference that seems to get some decent breaks.

(01-16-2019 11:58 AM)billyjack Wrote:  

(01-16-2019 09:55 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  

(01-16-2019 09:14 AM)stever20 Wrote:  

(01-16-2019 09:04 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  

(01-15-2019 07:48 PM)TexanMark Wrote:  I haven't checked but I assume they are the closest locations. Not sure why they can't get assigned there in your opinion.

The committee "protecting" the ACC teams, putting them close to home regardless of seed.

The committee has really been abandoning seeding logic over the last decade it feels, where the high seeds (1-4) aren't getting the geographical advantage they should. While you can't change the selected teams and venues, where you place them is something the committee very much controls. Unfortunately, now that the network has a seat at the table, television is considered, and seeding and placement happens after the field is selected, with "the curve" and other intangible excuses to justify some of these pairings. And for a Syracuse, the potential kind of reminds me of what happened the year UConn won the title. That first weekend...those pairings were not what they should have been. Great for us who love our northeastern hoops, and knowing we didn't have to go far to see our teams, but it shot holes through that placement structure. Or with Wichita when they grabbed a top line...to have then face a Kentucky-based team (you pick, Louisville or Kentucky) in Indianapolis. Total bull****.

Right now, Lunardi has Cuse at the 10 line. Move to the 8/9, and they may go to Columbus. Go to 11, and it could be Hartford (after the play-in). The potential of an out-of-region 3-seed getting Cuse in Connecticut just isn't right.

well one thing, if you are going to the play in game, the committee can't send you west by rule. Has to be reasonably close to Dayton....

Also if they're up to 8/9 they're going to be really limited where they can go, given who the top teams are and where the sites are. Right now Lunardi has 2 ACC teams as 1 seeds, so can't play there. Both the other 1 seeds(Michigan, Tennessee) he has going to Columbus- so if Syracuse is a 8/9 seed, that's where they must go.

With seeds 7 through 10 pretty much a toss-up, admitted by the committee, I don't know if I could look at a 8/9 Cuse in the above situation as anything but a deliberate pad.

I don't disagree with you. But, when you say "by rule," and we talk about the venue, and that Dayton team...it hits a similar nerve, like this placement thing. I don't think the rules are that. Some liberties taken. Not over the top egregious (well, Dayton was), but still not right.

Dayton that year (2015) beat Boise at home in the play-in game. Then the next game they played 20 minutes down the road in Columbus in a virtual home game that started on a Friday night at like 11:45pm, beating 6-seed Providence. In the Sunday game 2 days later they almost beat 3-seed Oklahoma, again in a virtual home game. Crazy that an 11-seed was given such an advantage (would've loved to have seen PC play in Worcester or Boston).

Columbus is 71 miles from Dayton

(01-16-2019 12:01 PM)stever20 Wrote:  totally agree with billyjack. plus Providence got victimized by maybe the worst technical foul that I have ever seen in that game on Cooley.

Nothing they can do with Dayton if they make the first four for first game. But 2nd/3rd games they should never get to play in Columbus. Common Sense.

Dayton is a good venue for the First Four. The town has really supported it...all you can ask for. If Dayton plays there...so be it.

BTW, awesome to be talking hoops again.

(01-16-2019 04:13 PM)TexanMark Wrote:  

(01-16-2019 12:01 PM)stever20 Wrote:  totally agree with billyjack. plus Providence got victimized by maybe the worst technical foul that I have ever seen in that game on Cooley.

Nothing they can do with Dayton if they make the first four for first game. But 2nd/3rd games they should never get to play in Columbus. Common Sense.

Dayton is a good venue for the First Four. The town has really supported it...all you can ask for. If Dayton plays there...so be it.

BTW, awesome to be talking hoops again.

Dayton has one of the best fan bases in the country. They routinely average 13k for home games. I would love if they were in the Big East, but I get the whole Cincinnati/Dayton thing. If Xavier doesn't want competition in/near their market, then it isn't worth the push (although I'd argue they would add value to the league, but that's just me).

Minnesota losing at Illinois is one thing.

Minnesota getting boat raced at Illinois is something else.

(01-16-2019 10:52 PM)Rube Dali Wrote:  Minnesota losing at Illinois is one thing.

Minnesota getting boat raced at Illinois is something else.

Brock Stull averaged 13/6/3 and 13/5/3 the last 2 years at UWM. He had the pick of mid-major litter as a graduate transfer.

He chose Pitino and Minnesota. The result? He took more shots in one game last year than all 15 games combined this year.

Kansas State (#51) upset Oklahoma (#15).
Wichita State (#125) upset UCF (#32).
Longwood (#254) upset Winthrop (#120).