(01-02-2023 08:19 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  To me, it is kind of weird that I need "defense" over the idea that Alabama - ALABAMA - is better than TCU or Michigan.

IMO, they obviously have better players and better coaches, and what else is there?

Performance on the field? Alabama played an SEC schedule and won all its games save for two at-the-buzzer losses to good SEC teams on the road. IMO that is better performance than going 12-1 or 13-0 vs B1G and Big 12 schedules. Is it really that controversial to assert that the SEC is the best league so wins there should count for more?

And then after what Alabama did to the Big 12 champ, a team that bested TCU in Dallas, a TCU team that dumped Michigan?

I bet that if Alabama was playing TCU or Michigan this week, they'd be at least a TD favorite over both.

And yet I keep getting told stuff like "Alabama's best win was over Texas, while TCU's was over Kansas State and Michigan's was over Ohio State and Alabama lost two games", stuff that IMO does nothing to detract from the IMO obviousness that Alabama is better and that if they played next week just about all of us would expect Alabama to win.

Oh well.

Bama is at best a borderline top 10 team this year. Their win in the afterthought bowl is inconsequential. At any rate I thought you were an LSU guy Quo. Doesn't all this Bama love make you a tad nauseous?

(01-02-2023 08:19 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  To me, it is kind of weird that I need "defense" over the idea that Alabama - ALABAMA - is better than TCU or Michigan.

IMO, they obviously have better players and better coaches, and what else is there?

Performance on the field? Alabama played an SEC schedule and won all its games save for two at-the-buzzer losses to good SEC teams on the road. IMO that is better performance than going 12-1 or 13-0 vs B1G and Big 12 schedules. Is it really that controversial to assert that the SEC is the best league so wins there should count for more?

And then after what Alabama did to the Big 12 champ, a team that bested TCU in Dallas, a TCU team that dumped Michigan?

I bet that if Alabama was playing TCU or Michigan this week, they'd be at least a TD favorite over both.

And yet I keep getting told stuff like "Alabama's best win was over Texas, while TCU's was over Kansas State and Michigan's was over Ohio State and Alabama lost two games", stuff that IMO does nothing to detract from the IMO obviousness that Alabama is better and that if they played next week just about all of us would expect Alabama to win.

Oh well.

So you think we should just let in teams based on their name? “Oh it’s Alabama they need to be in”. I personally think that you need to earn a CFP spot, not just automatically get one because you’re Alabama. If you have a worse resume than the 4 teams that ultimately got the CFP birth, you didn’t deserve to be in. Another biased argument.

(01-01-2023 09:07 PM)SkullyMaroo Wrote:  The Massey Composite hasn’t been updated since December 3. It will not update again until all bowls and CFP championship are played. Alabama is #3 in the Sagarin rating shown on the Massey Composite if you want evidence. It’s disingenuous to make a comparison to old Massey numbers using updated Sagarin numbers.

Solid point about comparing numbers from Dec 3 vs Dec 31.

But Alabama was #3 in Sagarin on Dec 3. And 3 is less than 4. But overall, the Massey Composite had Alabama at #5, and 5 is more than 4.

(01-02-2023 08:19 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  To me, it is kind of weird that I need "defense" over the idea that Alabama - ALABAMA - is better than TCU or Michigan.

IMO, they obviously have better players and better coaches, and what else is there?

Winning the games.

Quote:Performance on the field? Alabama played an SEC schedule and won all its games save for two at-the-buzzer losses to good SEC teams on the road. IMO that is better performance than going 12-1 or 13-0 vs B1G and Big 12 schedules.

Quote:Is it really that controversial to assert that the SEC is the best league so wins there should count for more?

When it's 12-1 vs 10-2, yes it is.

Counting regular season and CCG results, Alabama was 7-2 against P5 teams (counting Vanderbilt as a P5 team). TCU was 10-1 (counting Colorado). Michigan was 10-0.

Quote:IMO that is better performance than going 12-1 or 13-0 vs B1G and Big 12 schedules.

That's a minority position, as you might have noticed.

College football does put a ton of emphasis on number of losses. And Alabama had 2 of them.

Quote:And then after what Alabama did to the Big 12 champ, a team that bested TCU in Dallas, a TCU team that dumped Michigan?

You can't put much stock in these transitive comparisons. After all, Alabama was bested by LSU, who lost to A&M, who lost to Appalachian State, who lost to A&M, who lost to James Madison, who was an FCS team last year. [/quote]

I bet that if Alabama was playing TCU or Michigan this week, they'd be at least a TD favorite over both.

Quote:And yet I keep getting told stuff like "Alabama's best win was over Texas, while TCU's was over Kansas State and Michigan's was over Ohio State and Alabama lost two games", stuff that IMO does nothing to detract from the IMO obviousness that Alabama is better

It's not as obvious as you say, or you wouldn't be holding this position almost on your own.

Quote:and that if they played next week just about all of us would expect Alabama to win.

Based on Alabama's year, I expect they'd win or lose in the last minute.

[/quote]

(01-02-2023 09:05 AM)WhoseHouse? Wrote:  

(01-02-2023 08:19 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  To me, it is kind of weird that I need "defense" over the idea that Alabama - ALABAMA - is better than TCU or Michigan.

IMO, they obviously have better players and better coaches, and what else is there?

Performance on the field? Alabama played an SEC schedule and won all its games save for two at-the-buzzer losses to good SEC teams on the road. IMO that is better performance than going 12-1 or 13-0 vs B1G and Big 12 schedules. Is it really that controversial to assert that the SEC is the best league so wins there should count for more?

And then after what Alabama did to the Big 12 champ, a team that bested TCU in Dallas, a TCU team that dumped Michigan?

I bet that if Alabama was playing TCU or Michigan this week, they'd be at least a TD favorite over both.

And yet I keep getting told stuff like "Alabama's best win was over Texas, while TCU's was over Kansas State and Michigan's was over Ohio State and Alabama lost two games", stuff that IMO does nothing to detract from the IMO obviousness that Alabama is better and that if they played next week just about all of us would expect Alabama to win.

Oh well.

Bama is at best a borderline top 10 team this year. Their win in the afterthought bowl is inconsequential. At any rate I thought you were an LSU guy Quo. Doesn't all this Bama love make you a tad nauseous?

You prove you are a good team by winning games. Alabama has lost two games. Yes, close, but that's the point. The better team tends to win close games. If talent were all that mattered, you would just have given the Big 12 title to Oklahoma or Texas every year from 2010-2020, but Oklahoma St., Kansas St., TCU and Baylor twice were champs. Texas was usually not 2nd. Alabama would have won the SEC championship every year except maybe 2019 from 2010-2020. Instead Auburn twice, LSU twice and Georgia each won titles.

Losing means you aren't the best. If you can't accept that winning and losing means something, there's nothing to overcome your close minded thinking.

(01-02-2023 09:05 AM)WhoseHouse? Wrote:  

(01-02-2023 08:19 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  To me, it is kind of weird that I need "defense" over the idea that Alabama - ALABAMA - is better than TCU or Michigan.

IMO, they obviously have better players and better coaches, and what else is there?

Performance on the field? Alabama played an SEC schedule and won all its games save for two at-the-buzzer losses to good SEC teams on the road. IMO that is better performance than going 12-1 or 13-0 vs B1G and Big 12 schedules. Is it really that controversial to assert that the SEC is the best league so wins there should count for more?

And then after what Alabama did to the Big 12 champ, a team that bested TCU in Dallas, a TCU team that dumped Michigan?

I bet that if Alabama was playing TCU or Michigan this week, they'd be at least a TD favorite over both.

And yet I keep getting told stuff like "Alabama's best win was over Texas, while TCU's was over Kansas State and Michigan's was over Ohio State and Alabama lost two games", stuff that IMO does nothing to detract from the IMO obviousness that Alabama is better and that if they played next week just about all of us would expect Alabama to win.

Oh well.

Bama is at best a borderline top 10 team this year. Their win in the afterthought bowl is inconsequential. At any rate I thought you were an LSU guy Quo. Doesn't all this Bama love make you a tad nauseous?

"Borderline top 10"?

In the Massey Composite, of the 99 ratings included, only 3 had Alabama ranked below #8. Jelly Juke (I kid you not) ranked them #9, Joby Nitty Gritty (still not kidding) had them at #10 and According To Computers thought they were no better than #17. In that rating system, the author, one Chris Lee Perez, had the following rankings:

4 Penn State
5 Troy
6 Tulane
7 Kansas State
8 UT San Antonio

I leave it to the reader to decide how credible that ranking system is.

Alabama might have been a favorite playing TCU, Michigan or Ohio St. Just proves there is a sucker born every minute. Point spreads are to balance the betting, not about who is better.

My Father had a friend who said the surest way to make money gambling was to take the points and bet against Kentucky basketball. UK fans are very enthused.

(01-02-2023 08:23 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(01-01-2023 07:58 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  Massey Composite has always been quo’s go-to source. He has argued many times that Massey Composite is the best because it’s an aggregate of computers as opposed to just one computer.

Alabama is #5 in Massey Composite.

That's very true. I love the MC and IMO it is the best source.

But it isn't perfect. And IMO this is one time where it isn't/wasn't.

The MC is still based on games played through December 3. It doesn’t factor in the Army/Navy game nor does it factor in any bowl games. When it updates after all games are played it wouldn’t surprise me for Alabama to be ranked in the top 4.

Ohio State is 0-2 in their last two games. They only lost to Georgia by 1, but they lost to Michigan by 22. Alabama lost their games by 1 and 3. Speaking of Michigan, check the average Massey rating of Michigan’s opponents compared to Alabama’s and I would imagine there are some rating systems that would move Alabama ahead now that Michigan has a loss.

As a TCU fan I have no issue saying there are “better” teams not playing for the NC. But in basically every sport the “best” teams are often left out of the championship games/series. That’s because in any series of games/matches the best teams don’t always win. The college football postseason has always been a little bit unique because of the lack of a tournament/ postseason framework and the importance of rankings to determine the top teams to play in the BCS or playoffs. There the rub has been whether to rank teams based on who is “better” or who has “accomplished” more. The latter has typically won (no pun intended!) out but voters (and the committee) do place emphasis on each. Different computer systems also place different emphasis on each. Wrt to Alabama they just lagged in the “accomplished” rankings this year. Two losses, didn’t win their division knocked them down in the “accomplished” rankings and ratings.

(01-02-2023 08:19 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  To me, it is kind of weird that I need "defense" over the idea that Alabama - ALABAMA - is better than TCU or Michigan.

IMO, they obviously have better players and better coaches, and what else is there?

Performance on the field? Alabama played an SEC schedule and won all its games save for two at-the-buzzer losses to good SEC teams on the road. ...

Which were the best teams on it's schedule. And it's not like it dominated in all of its wins either: in its "best" win at Texas, it looked like it only won because the other team's starting QB was injured.

The problem with saving your only good win for your bowl game is you can't use it as an argument to get into the CFP.

Coaching and talent are the basis for saying that Alabama underperformed expectations. They aren't the basis for an argument for making an at large spot. The ongoing argument there is whether you pick based off n the whole season resume or what appears to be the team's quality at the time of the pick.

And before using Vegas odds, what was Bamas record at covering the spread against top 25 teams?

(01-02-2023 09:05 AM)WhoseHouse? Wrote:  

(01-02-2023 08:19 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  To me, it is kind of weird that I need "defense" over the idea that Alabama - ALABAMA - is better than TCU or Michigan.

IMO, they obviously have better players and better coaches, and what else is there?

Performance on the field? Alabama played an SEC schedule and won all its games save for two at-the-buzzer losses to good SEC teams on the road. IMO that is better performance than going 12-1 or 13-0 vs B1G and Big 12 schedules. Is it really that controversial to assert that the SEC is the best league so wins there should count for more?

And then after what Alabama did to the Big 12 champ, a team that bested TCU in Dallas, a TCU team that dumped Michigan?

I bet that if Alabama was playing TCU or Michigan this week, they'd be at least a TD favorite over both.

And yet I keep getting told stuff like "Alabama's best win was over Texas, while TCU's was over Kansas State and Michigan's was over Ohio State and Alabama lost two games", stuff that IMO does nothing to detract from the IMO obviousness that Alabama is better and that if they played next week just about all of us would expect Alabama to win.

Oh well.

Bama is at best a borderline top 10 team this year. Their win in the afterthought bowl is inconsequential. At any rate I thought you were an LSU guy Quo. Doesn't all this Bama love make you a tad nauseous?

Where does Houston football stack up? Bama hoops spanked y’all on your home court.

(01-02-2023 12:22 PM)BruceMcF Wrote:  

(01-02-2023 08:19 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  To me, it is kind of weird that I need "defense" over the idea that Alabama - ALABAMA - is better than TCU or Michigan.

IMO, they obviously have better players and better coaches, and what else is there?

Performance on the field? Alabama played an SEC schedule and won all its games save for two at-the-buzzer losses to good SEC teams on the road. ...

Which were the best teams on it's schedule. And it's not like it dominated in all of its wins either: in its "best" win at Texas, it looked like it only won because the other team's starting QB was injured.

The problem with saving your only good win for your bowl game is you can't use it as an argument to get into the CFP.

Coaching and talent are the basis for saying that Alabama underperformed expectations. They aren't the basis for an argument for making an at large spot. The ongoing argument there is whether you pick based off n the whole season resume or what appears to be the team's quality at the time of the pick.

And before using Vegas odds, what was Bamas record at covering the spread against top 25 teams?

I seem to recall hearing Alabama had been the underdog once in something like 10 years. They obviously have more than 10 losses.

(01-02-2023 01:32 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(01-02-2023 12:22 PM)BruceMcF Wrote:  

(01-02-2023 08:19 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  To me, it is kind of weird that I need "defense" over the idea that Alabama - ALABAMA - is better than TCU or Michigan.

IMO, they obviously have better players and better coaches, and what else is there?

Performance on the field? Alabama played an SEC schedule and won all its games save for two at-the-buzzer losses to good SEC teams on the road. ...

Which were the best teams on it's schedule. And it's not like it dominated in all of its wins either: in its "best" win at Texas, it looked like it only won because the other team's starting QB was injured.

The problem with saving your only good win for your bowl game is you can't use it as an argument to get into the CFP.

Coaching and talent are the basis for saying that Alabama underperformed expectations. They aren't the basis for an argument for making an at large spot. The ongoing argument there is whether you pick based off n the whole season resume or what appears to be the team's quality at the time of the pick.

And before using Vegas odds, what was Bamas record at covering the spread against top 25 teams?

I seem to recall hearing Alabama had been the underdog once in something like 10 years. They obviously have more than 10 losses.

Bama has 14 losses in the past 10 seasons. Their record is 124-14 in that timeframe.

(01-02-2023 01:32 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(01-02-2023 12:22 PM)BruceMcF Wrote:  

(01-02-2023 08:19 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  To me, it is kind of weird that I need "defense" over the idea that Alabama - ALABAMA - is better than TCU or Michigan.

IMO, they obviously have better players and better coaches, and what else is there?

Performance on the field? Alabama played an SEC schedule and won all its games save for two at-the-buzzer losses to good SEC teams on the road. ...

Which were the best teams on it's schedule. And it's not like it dominated in all of its wins either: in its "best" win at Texas, it looked like it only won because the other team's starting QB was injured.

The problem with saving your only good win for your bowl game is you can't use it as an argument to get into the CFP.

Coaching and talent are the basis for saying that Alabama underperformed expectations. They aren't the basis for an argument for making an at large spot. The ongoing argument there is whether you pick based off n the whole season resume or what appears to be the team's quality at the time of the pick.

And before using Vegas odds, what was Bamas record at covering the spread against top 25 teams?

I seem to recall hearing Alabama had been the underdog once in something like 10 years. They obviously have more than 10 losses.

Well, I bet Alabama has won alot more as a favorite then they have lost.

And I think they would be a significant favorite over TCU or Michigan.

Massey (using games through 12/31/22) has Alabama at 2.
https://masseyratings.com/cf/fbs/ratings

Prediction we'll never be able to check:
If TCU had lost to Michigan, TCU would be 5 in the final polls behind Alabama.

(01-02-2023 08:26 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(01-01-2023 08:31 PM)Crayton Wrote:  And will likely be #1 if Georgia loses by a bit. Sagarin’s is a power ranking and lists most likely to win on a neutral field. Don’t have a problem with saying Alabama is the #2 best team in the country. Postseason play, however, is based on winning the games. Georgia or TCU will have won the ones that count. Alabama did not.

About the bolded, IMO Alabama is probably the #2 best team, after Georgia. Coaching and talent exceed anyone but Georgia. I say probably because Ohio State has similar talent, it might be Ohio State. But IMO Alabama is no worse then #2/#3, and with a month of preparation I would favor them to beat anyone in a playoff game save for Georgia.

Just MO.

I agree.

If TCU wins next week, I wouldn't be surprised to see any of those 3 (UGA, OSU, Bama) placed #1 by some power ratings. Even some Resume Rankings may keep Georgia > TCU.

(01-02-2023 01:02 PM)unalions Wrote:  

(01-02-2023 09:05 AM)WhoseHouse? Wrote:  

(01-02-2023 08:19 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  To me, it is kind of weird that I need "defense" over the idea that Alabama - ALABAMA - is better than TCU or Michigan.

IMO, they obviously have better players and better coaches, and what else is there?

Performance on the field? Alabama played an SEC schedule and won all its games save for two at-the-buzzer losses to good SEC teams on the road. IMO that is better performance than going 12-1 or 13-0 vs B1G and Big 12 schedules. Is it really that controversial to assert that the SEC is the best league so wins there should count for more?

And then after what Alabama did to the Big 12 champ, a team that bested TCU in Dallas, a TCU team that dumped Michigan?

I bet that if Alabama was playing TCU or Michigan this week, they'd be at least a TD favorite over both.

And yet I keep getting told stuff like "Alabama's best win was over Texas, while TCU's was over Kansas State and Michigan's was over Ohio State and Alabama lost two games", stuff that IMO does nothing to detract from the IMO obviousness that Alabama is better and that if they played next week just about all of us would expect Alabama to win.

Oh well.

Bama is at best a borderline top 10 team this year. Their win in the afterthought bowl is inconsequential. At any rate I thought you were an LSU guy Quo. Doesn't all this Bama love make you a tad nauseous?

Where does Houston football stack up? Bama hoops spanked y’all on your home court.

Based on results or talent? If we're just talking talent, we were probably the best team in the American this year. However, by the results we were maybe 6th or 7th best in our league this year.

And yah that was good game. Quality 2nd weekend type match up. Hopefully both teams got better from it.

(01-02-2023 01:57 PM)The Sicatoka Wrote:  Massey (using games through 12/31/22) has Alabama at 2.
https://masseyratings.com/cf/fbs/ratings

Prediction we'll never be able to check:
If TCU had lost to Michigan, TCU would be 5 in the final polls behind Alabama.

That's not the Massey Composite - that's just Massey, one of 90+ components of the composite rank.

(01-02-2023 03:33 AM)Poster Wrote:  

(01-01-2023 08:16 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  Several years ago, folks would argue about who was 2/3 in the BCS. Today, we are arguing who is 4/5/6. In a few years, we will argue who is 12/13/14.

Oh, just wait until roughly 2035, when we'll be having debates about who's #32 and who's #33.


A minority of this website will be complaining that the 32 team playoff is way too big. But most people will be like "who doesn't enjoy more football. This is just great, the #32 team in the country in the playoff. If you don't enjoy all these playoff games, you don't have to watch them."

And in conclusion, get off my lawn!

(01-02-2023 06:47 PM)ken d Wrote:  

(01-02-2023 01:57 PM)The Sicatoka Wrote:  Massey (using games through 12/31/22) has Alabama at 2.
https://masseyratings.com/cf/fbs/ratings

Prediction we'll never be able to check:
If TCU had lost to Michigan, TCU would be 5 in the final polls behind Alabama.

That's not the Massey Composite - that's just Massey, one of 90+ components of the composite rank.

Never said it was. I find “just Massey” is my most reliable after week eight.