Ninerfan1 Wrote:[The death penalty is a punishment option afforded for someone who commits murder. It's punishment. And the decision is not based on what the person may become or may be later in life.

No you are wrong there, the death penalty is a punishment, but it is a punishment for use when you feel that a person cannot or will not be able to be rehabilitated.

gruehls Wrote:

georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:

RebelKev Wrote:

georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:I'm not familiar with down's syndrome... so I would need to know how it effects the brain.  They participate in the special olympics don't they?  I'd call that requiring a fundamental level of intelligence beyond that of the apes.

Pretty sure someone can train apes to run around a track. After all, they do dogs.

Dogs are chasing a birdie.... They're simply following a stimuli to eat. Chase the birdie... get some grub. Same as pavlov and the bells.

Difference b/t that and somebody with Down's Syndrome running laps for no reason other than (I'd guess... ) enjoyment of the spectacle.

there are wide variations in degrees of mental defects. at one end of the spectrum are those who no longer have, and possibly never had, the ability to "think" in any meaningful way.

you say there is some measurable level of intelligence which defines us as human, and below that level, the "person" can be exterminated. those at the far-end of the spectrum then are fair game for elimination.

i disagree with the conclusion and the analysis.

We'll be generous and say... you can only legally be put to death.. after born... if you're braindead. Your brain has very little to no functionality. You can't feed yourself. You can't drink anything yourself. You can't fend for yourself or care for yourself. If you're lucky, your brain stem is still operating your heart and lungs.

Relating to abortion... this is appropriate with my view b/c the period of time I'm pro-choice is the period before the brain has even developed. Hypothetically... if they were examined by a doctor at that moment... they would be ruled braindead. I understand they're still developing and in a few more weeks they won't be... but the point is they are not THEN. Which makes it acceptable to me if a pregnancy is aborted then for any one of the numerous reasons I mentioned earlier in this thread.

I admit that I haven't read all three pages of this thread, but just as a "drive by" I thought I'd add this...

A common argument for abortion is that none of us really "know" when/if life actually begins. But a counterargument could be made that, given the unknown, wouldn't it be better to err on the side of life? After all, if someone had information that a child may or may not be inside a house that had just caught on fire, wouldn't that person assume there was a kid in there, just to be on the safe side?

I tend to think that once a heart begins beating and brain waves get going inside a fetus (which I believe is roughly 8-10 weeks into the pregnancy), it's hands-off from that point on forward.

As far as capital punishment, that would be too good for someone like this guy...

<a href='http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-5136448,00.html' target='_blank'>http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/stor...5136448,00.html</a>

A seedy, dark prison (if there even IS one anymore) would be more suitable, with regular beatings like Captain Hadley administered to inmates in Shawshank Redemption.

Motown Bronco Wrote:I tend to think that once a heart begins beating and brain waves get going inside a fetus (which I believe is roughly 8-10 weeks into the pregnancy), it's hands-off from that point on forward.

The heart beats fairly early on --- so early some abortion places refuse to perform the abortion b/c they cannot image the fetus accurately. The heart beats... it just does nothing. It doesn't pump blood... etc. The brain isn't even there yet. The central nervous system is completely abscent... no spinal column... etc. The brain forms rapidly around the latter part of the 4-to-8 week period (6-to-10th week of pregnancy). So around the 8th.. .9th.. 10th week of pregnancy.. hands off.

georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:The heart beats... it just does nothing.&nbsp; It doesn't pump blood... etc.&nbsp; The brain isn't even there yet.&nbsp; The central nervous system is completely abscent... no spinal column... etc.&nbsp; &nbsp; The brain forms rapidly around the latter part of the 4-to-8 week period (6-to-10th week of pregnancy).&nbsp; &nbsp; So around the 8th.. .9th.. 10th week of pregnancy.. hands off.

I debunked this a couple of days ago. A heart doesn't just beat.

By four weeks, the embryo has a head, tail, backbone and limb buds - which will eventually become arms and legs. The beginnings of ears and eyes are also visible. Its heart is already beating, and the other organs are forming fast. An umbilical cord starts to grow between the embryo and the placenta. During this time, the embryo is especially sensitive to any drugs or infections capable of crossing the placenta from the mother.



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By the end of week 8 (the 10th week of pregnancy), all the different parts of the body are in place. Fingers and toes form - the embryo now has unique fingerprints. Its head is still very large compared to its body - almost half its length. The brain is growing at about 100,000 new brain cells every minute. All embryos look identical at seven weeks, before the sex-determining gene is switched on in males.

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So to recap.. the heart is beating b/f the brain is even there.

georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:By four weeks, the embryo has a head, tail, backbone and limb buds - which will eventually become arms and legs. The beginnings of ears and eyes are also visible. Its heart is already beating, and the other organs are forming fast. An umbilical cord starts to grow between the embryo and the placenta. During this time, the embryo is especially sensitive to any drugs or infections capable of crossing the placenta from the mother.



--------------------------------

By the end of week 8 (the 10th week of pregnancy), all the different parts of the body are in place. Fingers and toes form - the embryo now has unique fingerprints. Its head is still very large compared to its body - almost half its length. The brain is growing at about 100,000 new brain cells every minute. All embryos look identical at seven weeks, before the sex-determining gene is switched on in males.

---------------------------------

So to recap.. the heart is beating b/f the brain is even there.

Quote:Hearing the Fetal Heartbeat

by Marjorie Greenfield, M.D.
reviewed by Marjorie Greenfield, M.D.

The fetal heart
The embryonic heart starts beating 22 days after conception, or about five weeks after the last menstrual period, which by convention we call the fifth week of pregnancy. The heart at this stage is too small to hear, even with amplification, but it can sometimes be seen as a flickering in the chest if an ultrasound is done as early as four weeks after conception.

<a href='http://www.drspock.com/article/0,1510,9851,00.html' target='_blank'>http://www.drspock.com/article/0,1510,9851,00.html</a>

"By four weeks . . . its heart is already beating" - gts.

cant_think_of_a_witty_name Wrote:"By four weeks . . . its heart is already beating" - gts.

Correct; which is the fifth week of pregnancy.

The brain comes in about 2.5 to 3 weeks thereafter.

georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:So to recap.. the heart is beating b/f the brain is even there.

...and I defy you to tell me how that is physically possible. There has to be firing between the axons and dendrites before muscle tissue retracts. This is a function of the CNS, to which the Brain is head honcho. We're not talking about a fully devloped brain, just as we aren't talking about a fully developed heart.

RebelKev Wrote:

georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:So to recap.. the heart is beating b/f the brain is even there.

...and I defy you to tell me how that is physically possible. There has to be firing between the axons and dendrites before muscle tissue retracts. This is a function of the CNS, to which the Brain is head honcho. We're not talking about a fully devloped brain, just as we aren't talking about a fully developed heart.

destroy the entire brain other than the stem.... do you still have a heartbeat?

A: yes

And just look at the picture... YOU CAN SEE THROUGH the head man! The spinal column is still soft and grossly incomplete.

georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:destroy the entire brain other than the stem.... do you still have a heartbeat?

A: yes

So you're agreeing that it takes brain function/nervous input for the heart to beat? I still must ask, how does the heart beat?

RebelKev Wrote:

georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:destroy the entire brain other than the stem.... do you still have a heartbeat?

A:&nbsp; yes

So you're agreeing that it takes brain function/nervous input for the heart to beat? I still must ask, how does the heart beat?

Extremely primitive and incomplete stem. The spinal column doesn't even reach all the way through the body.. it's still as soft as play-dough.... and there is **no higher brain whatsoever** ... we're talking about the equivalent of a brain stem that doesn't even have lung functionality yet. Pfffffft. Get real.

georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:Extremely primitive and incomplete stem. The spinal column doesn't even reach all the way through the body.. it's still as soft as play-dough.... and there is **no higher brain whatsoever** ... we're talking about the equivalent of a brain stem that doesn't even have lung functionality yet. Pfffffft. Get real.

Do you honestly think all nerves come from the spinal cord? Sucks for those Parapalegics. With no heartbeat and all.

uhmump95 Wrote:There is no fallacy of logic.

Yeah, there really is.

Quote: If you believe in the sanctity of life, which is what the pro-lifers claim is their main reason against abortion, than that means that you are against all activities that take a human life.

That's an extremely naieve interpretation of what the pro-life position is.

FYI, if someone breaks into my house to harm my family, I will kill them.

If someone attacks my country then I have no problem with them dying in a war.

Forsaking guilty life for the preservation of innocent is the difference and why your argument is illogical.

The fallacy lies in the fact that the argument you want to make is one of absolution. The pro-life position is not one of no matter what the case life should never be taken. To assert that it is shows a total and complete lack of understanding as to the position.

Quote:It shouldn't matter if it is a fetus or a criminal.

That's your opinion. YOu can feel free to believe that people like Jeffrey Dahmer, Adolf Hitler and the like don't deserve death that of course is your right. I however recognize the difference between punishment for a crime and taking of an innocent life.

Quote:A life is a life.  Now you can make up your own reason why one is acceptable and the other isn't, but the argument is a very valid one.

One is acceptable because it is punishment for a crime. The crime of taking an innocent life. The only way your argument would be valid is if we existed in a vaccume.

Actually, uhmump is for the death penalty. He's trying to say, and failing, that the death penalty is the same as abortion. I can't explain why he thinks death as punishment and abortion is the same thing.

RebelKev Wrote:Actually, uhmump is for the death penalty. He's trying to say, and failing, that the death penalty is the same as abortion. I can't explain why he thinks death as punishment and abortion is the same thing.

I see.

So since he's pro-death penalty and pro-choice he must be pro-death. I mean, cause you're either for death or against it.

Ninerfan1 Wrote:I see.

So since he's pro-death penalty and pro-choice he must be pro-death. I mean, cause you're either for death or against it.

Good point. :laugh: